Posts by Disillusioned JW

41

Why dont practicing JWS cant accept the fact that the Watchtower Corporation is a commercialized false prophet ?

by Finkelstein in

to the majority of people who investigate the activities of the wts from its beginning history there were obvious false proclamations and doctrines propagated by the wts.. a matter of fact the wts produced a long list of literature that posted proclamations on the front cover and went into detail of things that were suppose to happen, from jesus returning changing the world in which we live and so on.. wonderful things one might say but not factual or either theologically correct .

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Disillusioned JW

Rocketman123 you sure do have a foul mouth, calling me an a***** - or should I say "foul hands" instead of "foul mouth" since you typed the word instead of spoke it.

Furthermore, that post you are referring to doesn't name you, but I guess you recognize the shoe fits you (figuratively speaking), since trying on the shoe (figuratively speaking). Prior to my post in this topic thread you hadn't even made a post in this topic thread, yet you felt I had singled you out. My comment of "How someone who had been a baptized JW could think the WT was about for-profit commercialism of literature is hard for me to comprehend" applies to anyone and everyone in that category, not exclusively you.

I joined the theocratic ministry school and gave my first Bible reading in the Kingdom Hall before the year 1975 (before age 10 and several years before I got baptized), thus I also became active in the WT religion a long time ago. I later had a subscription to the WT and the AW for several years. I obtained much literature and made contributions for them when obtaining the literature - but the literature was not sold to me. The contributions requested for the magazines and books were dirt cheap. The back of a 192-page book (United in Worship, for example) in the year 1983 only asked for a contribution of 75 cents for the 192-page books. That is a dirt cheap price - no room for a net profit to the WT for it. Yet you are saying I am ignorant on this matter. Good grief. In the Kingdom Hall I was a servant in charge of the magazine counter and the literature counter for a number of years. I am thus very aware of the WT asking contributions for the literature and how much was requested for them.

The literature was not SOLD by the WT, instead a contribution/donation was asked for them and usually obtained for them. That is an important distinction I am making. There is a difference between selling for profit as a commercial for-profit business and asking for contributions as a non-profit entity distributing items. You don't seem to see the distinction, but the WT clearly stated to the JWs that a contribution/donation was requested for them. The WT's Our Kingdom Ministry/Service even told publishers that householders could obtain the literature without giving money for it, if they sincerely said they couldn't afford it. (That was stated in at least one issue, and the last time I read it was only about a week ago). As a result, there were times when I gave the WT and AW issues to householders without obtaining a contribution pertaining to them for the WT Society. Yet, you claim to not know that policy, despite claiming to have been a JW. Eventually the WT religion (through JWs in the field) even stopped asking money when offering the literature. These examples show that literature was not being sold! Sometimes I met people (non-JWs) who said the WT/JWs sell literature, but told those people that is not true. I told them that instead a donation/contribution is asked for the items, but if people can't give the money they can still receive the items (at no charge). I also told them that the amount of the requested contribution doesn't produce any net profit, but rather only covers the cost (maybe not even the full cost) of producing the literature.

You won't succeed in intimidating me to get out of this site. I stand up to bullies who imitate the figurative 'father of lies'. Truth is important to me and I hate lies. I thus speak out (and write against) lies, including malicious lies about the WT.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

On page 10 of this message topic thread I said "As a result I now believe that the WT, despite being registered as a nonprofit, is commercialized." But now I again say the WT is not commercialized and that I was in error for briefly giving into the idea that the WT is commercialized.

Rocketman123 was incorrect in saying that the "... WTS sold its literature to the public, such as yearly subscriptions to magazines, books, cassette tapes, dvds ..." . Likewise others were incorrect in saying similar things. Though the WT listed a monetary amount for those items and requested donations/contributions for them, they were not selling those items. That is a crucial distinction that needs to be made.

The Qualified to Be Ministers book (1955 edition) on page 354 in paragraph 5 says "The Society is nonprofit and noncommercial ....". I came across statement about two days ago without looking for such a statement (instead I was looking for more information about the WT's history). The WT hasn't sold literature but instead asked for donations/contributions. The donations/contributions that were directly received for literature didn't cover the cost of producing the literature. Furthermore people in the field could obtain the literature without making the contribution, and eventually the WT (and JWs in the field ministry) even stopping asking for contributions in association with offerings of literature. The contribution amounts, such as 75 cents for a 192-page book in 1983, were dirt cheap. It is clear to me that the WT is not about for-profit commercialism of literature, however I have wondered why they produced so many different books, considering that the general message of so many of the books is basically the same. Maybe the main reason for so many different books is to keep the JWs excited about the religion and to keep them reading the literature, as well as attract more people to the religion (by keeping the literature exciting)

41

Why dont practicing JWS cant accept the fact that the Watchtower Corporation is a commercialized false prophet ?

by Finkelstein in

to the majority of people who investigate the activities of the wts from its beginning history there were obvious false proclamations and doctrines propagated by the wts.. a matter of fact the wts produced a long list of literature that posted proclamations on the front cover and went into detail of things that were suppose to happen, from jesus returning changing the world in which we live and so on.. wonderful things one might say but not factual or either theologically correct .

.

Disillusioned JW

The Qualified to Be Ministers book (1955 edition) on page 354 in paragraph 5 says "The Society is nonprofit and noncommercial ....". They don't sell literature but instead asked for donations. The donations that were directly received for literature don't cover the cost of producing the literature. The donation amounts such as 75 cents for a 192-page book in 1983 were dirt cheap. How someone who had been a baptized JW could think the WT was about for-profit commercialism of literature is hard for me to comprehend.

16

Do you think there is an Omnipotent, Omniscient Being that lives forever and ever?

by pistolpete in

notice that i left off "benevolent" .

reason being is because i could argue that being all knowing and all powerful is not a prerequisite of being "good".

yet i'm a firm believer that "something didn't come from nothing".

Disillusioned JW

Hell no! The only possible exception I can think of is if the universe (or multiverse if there is one) is somehow a conscious being/entity - a type of pantheism (for lack of a better word). But even if the universe (or multiverse) is conscious (maybe in the sense of a colossal quantum computer), its knowledge and its power would not be infinite, though it would contain all of the knowledge and power in existence at any moment of time. The type of pantheism I am speaking of is probably close to Baruch Spinoza's idea/belief that God is the universe (or nature), except I don't think Spinoza thought the universe (or nature) is conscious.

I think the universe, in the fullest sense of the word "universe" (which would be equal to a multiverse if a multiverse exists) has always existed in some form and will always exist in some form. Though I believe/think the universe (that which is currently defined as the universe or a bubble within a multiverse) has expanded in volume tremendously since about 13.8 billion years ago (but with possible adjustments for time dilation when considering a temporal frame of reference), I don't think it was ever a singularity (with zero volume and infinite mass-energy density). The general relativity equations don't work for singularities; instead the equations must be modified for quantum effects (but scientists don't yet know to fully modify them).

Scientists keep looking for an ultimate beginning (or truly fundamental particle, at least as far as I know) but they haven't yet found one and that suggests to me that nature is eternal (and thus never had in intelligent creator/designer). Even when some scientists speak of the universe coming from nothing, they never mean literal nothingness. Instead they mean quantum fluctuations of energy (and maybe also disconnected bits of space and time with no defined alignment or direction) in the so-called void (or in the fabric of space-time), or something like that.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Sometimes I wonder if in addition to my regular conscious mind I have a second conscious mind - one which is much more highly intelligent and creative (and possibly even a genius) than the regular one but dormant most of the time. I want to develop my mind more, especially the seemingly other mind I might have. If I do have latent mental powers that are rarely tapped/accessed, maybe some form of meditation (and/or brain training) will help me to more frequently bring them to the fore.

After writing the above I searched the internet for this idea and I found the article located at https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/24/do-our-brains-have-extraordinary-untapped-powers .

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

An important thing to keep in mind is that both the Old and New Testaments of the Bible encourage people to pray to Yahweh/God and to ask for his guidance and insight. In addition, the New Testament says that the Holy Spirit is available as a helper and that followers of Christ should pray for Holy Spirit. As a result many devout Christians (probably many tens of millions), including people of numerous denominations and sects and those who are nondenominational (or even independent Christians), pray to God, Christ, and/or the Holy Spirit, and believe God, Christ, and/or the Holy Spiri in some way gave them ideas. It is thus natural that some of the writers at the WT would also believe and/or say that Jehovah God is leading them and in some way giving them interpretations of the Bible. Likewise numerous people of so-called pagan religions believe that some God, god, gods, spirit, spirits, and/or force is(are) giving them ideas.

That probably explains why there were so many people in Bible times (according to the Bible) who were false prophets. Namely (at least from an atheistic philosophical naturalist point of view), so many people sincerely (but incorrectly) thought they were getting ideas from the God, a god, a spirit, or spirits when instead it was their own human mind that gave them the ideas. [In other cases people were outright lying, not believing themselves were prophets.] I've talked to a number of individual Christians (of various churches/sects and those of no church/sect affiliation) who tell me that God has told (or in some other way conveyed) ideas to them. A great many people are superstitious (an atheistic point of view considers it to be superstitious) in this regard, not accepting that their own minds could get such ideas independent of some spirit being.

A lot of religious literature (and verbal instruction) encourages such superstitious thinking, by telling people that supernatural beings (sometimes a being deemed honest and benevolent and sometimes one deemed the opposite) insert thoughts into their minds. People are encouraged to engage in thinking patterns and practices which are claimed to invite a good God/god/spirit to communicate with them. Likewise people are encouraged to avoid thinking patterns and practices which are claimed to invite a bad God/god/spirit to communicate with them. Even the fictional Star Wars movies have a theme of encouraging the influence of the good side of the force and discouraging the influence of the bad side of the force.

Our brains naturally cause ideas to jump into our conscious minds randomly (or at least seemingly randomly). Sometimes I get ideas that seem to come to out of nowhere (and having no relation to what I was consciously thinking about at the time) and which also seem so brilliant to me that is hard for me, even despite being an atheist, to believe they are my own ideas. I convince myself that some part of my subconscious mind thought up the ideas (perhaps thinking about them for time) and presented the ideas to my conscious mind. I can thus see how devoutly religious people, especially ones imploring God for guidance, could be convinced they were getting ideas directly from a supernatural being (whether a good one or a bad one).

36

Converted Greek Philosopher Explains Christianity in 125 AD

by Sea Breeze in

i ran across a pretty early treatise.

we were all taught that "real" christianity was lost to history and was only restored once russell and then rutherford restored it so that the wt could be appointed as god's "mouthpiece".

but, aristides wrote to the emperor hadrian and gave a pretty good synopsis of core christian belief in 125 ad.

Disillusioned JW

Thanks Earnest for pointing out that there is evidence that the inclusion of the word "God" in the phrase "God came down from heaven" is likely spurious in the Syriac manuscript of the Apology of Aristides.

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

TD a moment ago I read a considerable portion, and quickly skimmed the rest, of the web page you linked to at https://casetext.com/case/moyle-v-franz-2 but I don't see what it has to do with claims of direction or inspiration. It just seems to about legal matters pertaining to expulsion from the religious organization/society, libel, and defamation. What statements in it pertain to divine inspiration?

It does use the word "inspired" twice, but only in the naturalistic nonsupernatural sense. There it says the following. "The writing of the article may have been inspired by plaintiff's conduct, but that has no legal significance. From the earliest times, general or abstract religious and philosophical meditations and observations have been inspired by particular instances of conduct."

156

Remembering Rutherford

by Sea Breeze in

he seems to me to be the angriest and most ill-tempered of all the wt presidents, especially after his stint in prison and failed prophecies.. “regarding his misguided statements as to what we could expect in 1925, he [rutherford] once confessed to us at bethel, “i made an ass of myself.”” watchtower 1984 oct 1 p.24.

rutherford died at beth sarim on january 8, 1942, at the age of 72.

[220] cause of death was...carcinoma of the rectum..."[21] .

Disillusioned JW

Thanks TD for your post about "... JW leaders and policy makers want[ing] it both ways ...."

Thanks Earnest for the link to the older thread. I notice on the first page of that thread a post says in part the following.

'ONCE AGAIN THEY ARE CLAIMING INSPIRATION

This Resolution was adopted by congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses
throughout the earth.

The announcement in the Watchtower magazine of October 15, 1932, at the end of 2,300 evenings and mornings was:

"the official notification made by Jehovah"

through his visible channel of communication that his sanctuary of anointed "living stones" had been cleansed, vindicated and justified."

Watchtower, October 1. 1959, page 601-2. Italics mine.'

That comment directly ties into my quote of the Preparation's book description about a Resolution printed in the 15th of October, 1932 issue of the WT. [A pdf of the 1932 WT magazine issues can be read at https://ia600902.us.archive.org/5/items/WatchtowerLibrary/magazines/w/w1932_E.pdf .] But what I didn't know until today is that WT issue of October 1. 1959, page 601-2 in paragraph 48 said an announcement was claimed as "the official notification made by Jehovah" and that the WT claimed it was made at the end of the 2,300 days. WOW! You can read those pages at https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1959723 . There it says in part the following.

'This Resolution was adopted by congregations of Jehovah’s witnesses throughout the earth. The announcement in the Watchtower magazine of October 15, 1932, at the end of 2,300 evenings and mornings was the official notification made by Jehovah through his visible channel of communication that his sanctuary of anointed “living stones” had been cleansed, vindicated and justified. It had been restored to its rightful state as regards the elimination of democratically elected “elders” and as regards the theocratic appointing of the congregational overseer.' [The bold facing is mine, for emphasis.]

But it gets much worse for the WT. That is because https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/revelation-daniel-prophetic-interpretation.php says the current WT teaching regarding the 2,300 days is for the time period of "From June 1st 1938 to October 15th 19444"! Was Jehovah God wrong making an official notification through his visible channel of communication about the announcement? Or is it just that the 2,300 days ended later than previously taught, but that the announcement of the change of the policy regarding democratically elected elders was still Jehovah's announcement? Or did Jehovah have nothing to do the announcement and is it the case that the WT is not Jehovah's visible channel of communication?

Furthermore, in an earlier post I mentioned the Sanctified book says the Elisha work period began right after the death of Rutherford. Well in Rutherford's Preparation book (and I think it is also in another of his books) Rutherford says it began in the year 1919! https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/revelation-daniel-prophetic-interpretation.php also provides documentation of the change in the definition of when the Elisha work (according the WT) began.

The WT has a poor track record of trying to interpret biblical prophecy. Perhaps they would do better if they stopped trying to interpret prophecy, at least in making interpretations that differ radically when those of mainstream Bible scholars.